Sam Zislman during Saturday’s protest while confronted by members of the Frente Contra Las Redadas del Condado de Ventura. Photo By Stacy La Mascus/Brooks Institute of PhotograpahyTHE PROTEST ON VIDEO
By Sondra Murphy
Immigration angst festered in our little pocket of paradise this weekend as Ojai Avenue was teeming with more than 50 protesters from opposite sides of the issue Saturday in the usually relaxed downtown atmosphere. About a dozen supporters of Save Our State and No More Invasion, gathered around North and South Montgomery streets with cameras ready to out people hiring undocumented workers. The remaining were counter-protesters from Frente Contra Las Redadas del Condado de Ventura (United Front Against the Raids), who rallied to support day laborers.
One Save Our State protester, choosing to be identified by her Native American name, Standing Alone, was armed with pepper spray because of her experiences with previous protests elsewhere. “Thankfully, everyone behaved, but it could have been a disastrous thing,” she said Monday. “We accomplished something that day and communicated with others. It’s not wrong to say that hiring illegals is wrong.”
Competing chants from opposite viewpoints grew ugly and no one was giving much personal data as the three-hour rally ensued. Strong emotion was infectious and inspired passing responses by locals toward both camps.
Sam Zislman held a sign that read, “Hiring illegal aliens today? Expect to be filmed and reported.” He responded to shouts to go home with, “Free speech, as a constitutional right, is not limited by county or state and I am allowed to voice my free speech where I wish.”
When Thacher junior Gaby Karefa-Johnson encountered the protest during a casual walk into town with friends, she rallied on the pro-immigration side at first. Deciding to talk to the opposition, her questions compelled a collection of adults to surround her, including Zislman and Alone.
As their conversation continued, volume increased and name-calling began. As Karefa-Johnson attempted to clarify her position, Alone perceived a threat and held up the pepper spray in defense. Karefa-Johnson managed to escape unsprayed, but crossed the street to a chorus of chants about her being a racist.
“She had no business coming back and threatening our member with two clenched fists,” said Alone. “I kept telling her ‘Please step back.’ But nobody was sprayed.”
One OVN photographer heard Karefa-Johnson asking Alone and the other woman to “get out of my face” during the encounter.
Included in the accusations being tossed back and forth was that Save our State and No More Invasion members were primarily from Los Angeles and Orange counties. Alone said that four of their participants were from the Ojai Valley.
One spectator of the commotion, who declined to give her name, said, “They say they represent every American, but they don’t represent me.” She added that she disliked that the protesters mostly came from outside of the county and were making a “spectacle of themselves.” She added that she felt that Ojai was a place of peaceful coexistence and most of its residents would disagree with such protests.
Other passersby voiced agreement with the anti-immigration stance. Tom Johnson was not a member of any group but said he is a “strong supporter of the law and national borders.” Johnson did not resort to shouting, saying it “only causes people to lose their cool, which undermines both sides.”
Several supporters of Frente Contra las Redadas del Condado de Ventura showed signs of anger at some of the chants of the protesters, but kept their retorts vocal. “The only reason we showed up to the rally is because the other groups entered our county and stood in opposition,” said an FCR-VC member who identified himself as Gavriil E.
Ojai police monitored the protests, but found no cause to interrupt the events. “For the most part, things went well,” said Sgt. Joe Evans. By mid-afternoon, the main artery through Ojai was again tranquil, but residual debates still haunt local blog sites.
For more photos of the rally and a special video by Ojai Valley News videographer Rob Clements, go to ojaivalleynews.com and click “Immigration Protest Ends Peacefully.”
Stacy La Mascus of Brooks Institute of Photography contributed to this report.
97 comments:
Now, in this time, who is not an immigrant? Remember the Pilgrims,the Native Americans or our first ancestors? They all had to move into many locations to succeed in life and to find a better place and a better future for their families. How about the "Human Evolution," where do we come from? I feel so ashame for those who forget the real meaning of humanity, respect, freedom, and mainly about our "Equal Opportunity Nation".
lol. The lady with pepper spray.
john Q tax payer is a&&hole free loaders send them back if you like their sevice and slave labor go with them do the best sevice to the country and leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport deport P.S. DEPORT DEPORT DEPORT DEPORT THANXS www.DEPORTFORPRES@yahoo.con
Enough with the "we're all immigrants" argument. I was born in the United States therefore I'm not an immigrant. The Pilgrims didn't immigrate to the United States. They colonized, in the name of Great Britain, what they saw as an unorganized land without any centralized government. In effect they brought a country with them. They did not change nationality. The discussion is about geo-political situation.
Our Country is not elitist or exclusionary. We have not forgotten any concept of "send us your huddled masses". The US provides for legal immigration. This procedure can be long, difficult and frustrating, just as it should be. If our Country is so much more attractive than your native one, it should be worth the wait. It is not a perfect system. The procedure is expedited for those proving the need for political asylum.
If you have forgotten what it took to found this country (and it is easy to do so), watch the HBO mini-series John Adams. It replaces the romanticized version of our Revolution with a raw, gritty one as seen through the eyes of those who were there. These extraordinary patriots - men and women alike - built a country without an instruction manual or template to copy. They provided a system of government based on fairness and law.
Is the expectation that our laws be upheld in order to protect what has been built so wrong, so inhuman, so disrespectful? I don't believe that it is and I feel no shame in that belief.
B Dawson
Legal immigrants are fine and even encouraged but illegal immigrants is exactly what it is - ILLEGAL!
Respect is something that lawbreakers don't have or use.
What freedom, we legal citizen's don't have freedom because of the criminals taking over our country.
Equal Opportunity is for Legal Citizen's, not illegal citizen's!
Humanity is making them stay with their families in their own country of origin. Let them fix their own country and make it better for it's citizen's and their own family.
I have been physically attacked two times by illegal's, my husbands 1 yr old truck was hit and run by a car load of illegal's, it cost our insurance company over $11,000 to fix, no insurance and they ran down the road to another illegal's vehicle and drove off. The CHP officer said it was reported sold 4 months before but never registered under the new owner. He said they are called throw away cars and it happens everyday. Thank God my husband has his health and his life. My daughters vehicle was keyed all over the side by illegal's, they just laughed but the police could only take a report since there were over 75 illegal's standing there and of course nobody would tell the police who did it.
Legal citizen's need to come back to reality and they will when something happens to them or their family member.
No Amnesty now or ever, send them home, it is more cost effective!
CHEAP LABOR?
Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about?
Business doesn't want to pay a decent wage.
Consumers don't want expensive produce.
Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs.
But the bottom line is cheap labor.
The phrase 'cheap labor' is a myth, a farce, and a lie
there is no such thing as
'cheap labor.'
Take, for example, an illegal alien with a wife and five children. He takes a job for $5.00 or $6.00/ hour. At that wage, with six dependents, he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year, if he files an Income Tax Return,
he gets an 'earned income credit' of up to $3,200 free.
He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent.
He qualifies for food stamps.
He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.
His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.
He requires bilingual teachers and books.
He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.
If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled, they qualify for SSI.
Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for Medicare.
All of this is at that taxpayer's expense.
He doesn't worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.
Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.
He and his family receive the equivalent of $20.00 to $30.00/hour in benefits.
Working Americans are lucky to have $5.00 or $6.00/hour left after paying their bills and his.
The American taxpayers also pay for increased crime, graffiti and trash clean-up.
Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!
Wake up people!
Wake up America
LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ
This is more than just thought provoking. It is time to wake up!
ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ - The following is a copy of an article written by Spanish writer Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez, published in a Spanish newspaper on 5-22-07. It doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate the message to the rest ofEurope -- and possibly to the rest of the world.
==================================
REMEMBER AS YOU READ -- IT WAS IN A SPANISH PAPER Date: Tue, 22 May 2007 14:30:20 -0500
ALL EUROPEAN LIFE DIED IN AUSCHWITZ By Sebastian Vilar Rodrigez(*)
I walked down the street in Barcelona , and suddenly discovered a terrible truth - Europe died in Auschwitz . We killed six million Jews and replaced them with 20 million Muslims. In Auschwitz we burned a culture, thought, creativity, talent. We destroyed the chosen people, truly chosen, because they produced great and wonderful people who changed the world.
The contribution of this people is felt in all areas of life: science, art, international trade, and above all, as the conscience of the world. These are the people we burned.
And under the pretense of tolerance, and because we wanted to prove to ourselves that we were cured of the disease of racism, we opened our gates to 20 million Muslims, who brought us stupidity and ignorance, religious extremism and lack of tolerance, crime and poverty, due to an unwillingness to work and support their families with pride.
They have blown up our trains and turned our beautiful Spanish cities into the third world, drowning in filth and crime.
Shut up in the apartments they receive free from the government, they plan the murder and destruction of their naive hosts.
And thus, in our misery, we have exchanged culture for fanatical hatred, creative skill for destructive skill, intelligence for backwardness and superstition.
We have exchanged the pursuit of peace of the Jews of Europe and their talent for hoping for a better future for their children, their determined clinging to life because life is holy, for those who pursue death, for people consumed by the desire for death for themselves and others, for our children and theirs.
What a terrible mistake was made by miserable Europe.?
***********************************
A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagineAmerica can suffer defeat without any inconvenience to themselves.
Absolutely No Profiling! Pause a moment, reflect back:
These events are actual events from history. They really happened! Do you remember?
1. 1968 Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a: a Muslim male extremist between the ages of 17 and 40.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
3. In 1979, the US embassy in Iran was taken over by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
4. During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanonby: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
5. In 1983, the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
6. In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
7. In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
8. In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
9. In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
10. In 1998, the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
11. On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take out the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
12. In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
13. In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by: a Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
No, I really don't see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you? So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, airport security screeners will no longer be allowed to profile certain people. They must conduct random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with proper identification, secret agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal of Honor winner and former Governor Joe Foss, but leave Muslim Males between the ages of 17 and 40 alone lest they be guilty of profiling. Let's send this to as many people as we can so that the Gloria Aldreds and other dunder-headed attorneys along with Federal Justices that want to thwart common sense, feel ashamed of themselves -- if they have any such sense.
As the writer of the award winning story "Forrest Gump" so aptly put it, "Stupid is as stupid does."
I was there in Ojai last Saturday. I find it really sad that people actually support the illegal aliens. What I found inspiring is the fact that we heard "Thank You for what you are doing" over and over, a legal immigrant said he is mad that they come here illegally and should be called what they are “guest workers”, but they should have to do it the legal way to work here. We received so many thumbs up, claps, smiles with favorable nods and honks with waves in our favor.
There were some people that cussed us out, one guy that told us he is mentally ill and has been suicidal for 5 years and he wanted us to leave, then he spoke with your police officer telling him he didn't want us here. Evidently he didn't feel we should be able to have freedom of speech.
Your Thacher junior Gaby Karefa-Johnson, an African American girl came at us first after talking to the members of the Frente Contra Las Redadas del Condado de Ventura. She wasn't asking questions so much as yelling at us telling us that the white man stole the United States. She wasn't interested in the History of how America acquired what we did. She obviously didn't pay attention in school or she hasn't learned it yet. The words coming out of her mouth are the same words we hear from the opposition at all the locations we go to, so she was not there out of curiosity walking down the street. The only friend she was walking with was a hispanic girl who just kept laughing at what Gaby had to say, so the more she would laugh, the louder and more disrespectful Gaby became. When finally she yells out "Jesus Christ!" I told her that is uncalled for and she immediately started yelling at me that she is an atheist, doesn't believe in Jesus Christ or God and never will!" I told her that I felt really sorry for her. Then while she is still shouting at us, she proceeded to cross the street where she confronted Standing Alone and a few other people in a threatening way. Due to the fact that we have been assaulted on several occasions by illegal aliens, they were prepared for what might be coming once again, since she had to fists coming at them.
How about calling a spade a spade. These people are illegal aliens, not undocumented workers as has become the favored choice of words these days.
Although 50 protestor’s sounds like a nice number, there were only about 30 at the most between the two sides. The opposition consisted of socialists, gang members, and a couple adults leading them (someone said they are teachers). A couple of the opposition that I talked to told me they are from Oxnard. There was one blonde lady that kept hiding her face but was telling the illegal’s what to say and encouraging the uneducated young adults, she sure didn’t want anyone to see her face. They had nothing but hatred for the United States of America and the freedoms we have here. I say fine but if you hate it so much, please leave. There is nothing to keep you here if that is the way you feel.
I for one love my country very much, I thank God every day for the freedoms that we have here (no, I am not some religious fanatic as some have said, in fact I am ashamed to say I have rarely gone to church in the last 28 years, but I do have a lot of faith).
We need to thank our soldiers for giving us those freedoms and assuring that we keep them. They should thank our military as well, because they wouldn't be able to show their lack of knowledge on the true history of the United States of America, if it weren't for our soldiers fighting to save our freedom/freedom of speech. Whether you are knowledgeable or ignorant.
I would also think that most Americans would rather help our senior citizen's and our poor than help some foreign criminal border jumper. You don't know what laws they have broken in their own country, if they have murdered someone, are carrying some disease to spread, or if they have raped someone. When they are illegal, you don’t find those things out until it is too late.
The day this all took place two hispanics hit and ran someone in Westlake, so they took off down the freeway at a high rate of speed trying to get away. They were rewarded in a very special way, they killed themselves overturning the vehicle they were in, and thank God no innocent American citizen’s were killed in the process. I would guess they are probably here illegally and don’t have insurance, so they tried to get away.
In my neighborhood, several illegal families have taken over at least 5 homes. When they moved in, most of the young women and teenage girls were pregnant and several have had a few babies since coming here. They all drive expensive vehicles while having 6-8families in each house. The police are at each house pretty regularly, sometimes it is spousal abuse, other times it is people wanted for attempted murder, and a few times it is because of drug dealers or parole violations. I was shocked one morning when I looked out my front window to see several undercover police cars on both sides of the street, plus at least one normal sheriff’s car. One of the officers that parked in front of my house was carrying a rifle or a shotgun and put it back in his trunk eventually when he was getting ready to leave. I have no idea how long they were there before I discovered them, but the did arrest at least one man that I saw.
Furthermore they convert each room into a apartment, the garage into 2 apartments and the pool equipment room into living quarters. The county told one of our neighbors that they are look the other way, because of a shortage of housing. That was in response to her taking in a letter of complaint, signed by all the legal neighbors. Yet they fine all the legal owners for any building violations that werent permitted. Double standards I would say, wouldn't you?
There are small children and babies all over the place in our neighborhood, the parents shouldn’t have to worry about this activity going on in our normally quiet community. Most of them only stay a few months then they move on to the next house, the police are bouncing back and forth from house to house trying to find the criminals.
Then to make matter worse, one person/family pays property taxes but there are at least 2 kids in each family attending school (4-8 kids from each house). No wonders our state has gone broke, plus the test scores are very low thanks to their not speaking English or very limited English.
Do a little research; they say the jails are 30-50 percent illegal aliens. Is that what you want in your country? They drive drunk regularly, and kill innocent people in the process.
They love to say "if the immigrants aren't here, who will pick the crops, who will do your laundry, who will raise your kids, who will wash your car, who will mow your lawn, who will do...? I will tell you who as I tell them, I raised my own children, I wash my own car, I cook my own meals, I take care of my own yard work, I do my own laundry and my husband works on our vehicles, etc. I even worked in farm fields during high school, as did my husband to earn my own spending money. I pay insurance because the law says I have to, I don't get subsidized income, food stamps or anything else and I would not invade another country uninvited or illegally ever. I believe in following the laws of whatever land and they should too!
I hear people say their families are being separated and it isn’t fair, that was or is their choice. What kind of a parent just abandons their children, wife or husband? You get married and have children to have a family. A family stays together and a good parent teaches right from wrong. If they get pregnant while in the USA illegally, we should not have to support that child and that child should not be an automatic American citizen. No other country in the world allows this and neither should we!
Take care of our own citizens first and obey the laws here in the United States. God Bless America and God Bless our military!
Jesus, I am sooo tired of (you) ignorant, ham-fisted ignorant sots belching your pseudo-patriotic, racist bilge... Always harping and blaming others (muslims, mexicans, haitians, the gas station attendant, your mother-in-law) for your own personal shortcomings and failures. She-ite, folks turn-off the T.V. and go look in the mirror!!
Better yet take your “patriotism” to Iraq or to bail-out Bear-Sterns
Sad part about all of this is, the only racists were the Frente Contra Las Redadas del Condado de Ventura. They were fast to call us all kinds of names constantly bringing race into everything, and then in their next breath, they would call us racist. But that is typical of those people, we are getting used to it. I am proud to be an American Patriot; too bad more people don't take the time to do their part in saving the United States. By the time they realize what has happened, it will be too late.
By the way, our groups consist of African Americans, American Indians, Hispanics, Anglo's, Asian's, mothers, fathers, grandparent's, great grandparents, young adults. We have them all and welcome any American Citizen as long as they believe in following our laws and the Constitution. We don't tolerate racists in our group ever.
Thank you for Rob Clement's video.
Now please tell me, what motivates Sondra Murphy to write an article so at odds with what her own photographer's video shows?
The woman with the pepper spray ASSAULTED that high school student. Despicable.
Sondra Murphy reports that the woman "perceived a threat," like its all OK. Look at the video! She came up on her own waving pepper spray at a high school student who was enduring a verbal assault from that other hate-spewer. The student retreated from the assault, clearly in fear of being pepper sprayed.
That is criminal assault.
I thought reporters' job was to expose truth, not whitewash hateful, screaming racists.
As someone who was there, I can tell you that it was not two opposing out of town groups. These "Save Our State" people showed up and were spewing all kinds of racist bile, getting in anyone's face who passed by with their video cameras and screaming hate speech. Perhaps five or ten people from a group that said they were based in Oxnard and track these hate-spewers came to counter their "protest." That group swelled to probably thirty or forty people, consisting of Ojai citizens who were out that morning - which your video shows by the way, if you look at the hate group, you will see not one local Ojaian, if you look at the counterprotesters and people standing with them, there were numerous locals.
We can be proud of that. But we could be alot prouder if our local paper didn't try to pretend away the reality that these people came to Ojai to spew hateful racist bile in the heart of our downtown, terrorize members of our community who otherwise were ready to work, and even assaulted a high school student. If you reported the truth from that morning, you would report that while, sadly, a few passersby appeared to sympathize with the "Save Our Staters," Ojaians by and large made clear that their racist bile and hate is not welcome here.
Funny too how you ignored their leader in your article, he of the "Irish" tee and spider tattoo on the elbow. Do your readers a service and report on what that spider tattoo stands for.
The people who were here Saturday protesting illegal immigration may have been the wrong people to have been fronting for their cause, but their cause is just. We are being pushed out of our own state by an invasion of people who have no intention of ever becoming Americans, and we're helping our invaders win. They don't have to fight us -- all they have to do is outnumber us, and they're well on their way to doing that. Someday, you'll look back and realize that it all happened right in front of your eyes and that you either ignored what was happening, or that you actually aided and abetted the culture that had every intention of supplanting your own and undoing the America that you had promised to your children.
First off, you are a fool if you believe she was assaulted (but you already know that she was not assaulted, you are trying to make people believe a lie), she was across the street yelling at us first, and then she went to the other side of the street in a threatening way. The video shows what he wants you to see. We have video of her on both sides of the street; she is anything but some innocent high school student. We also have plenty of still photo’s showing her true colors and what she was doing, she was a trouble maker trying to start a fight both sides of the street. She made racist remarks while doing it.
The truth is what Sondra Murphy was trying to tell what transpired based on what she saw in the photos and what her reporters told her, as well as interviewing a couple people from both sides. If there was any whitewash going on, it is what really happened and the racist remarks made to the Patriot’s over and over. There is nothing wrong with saying “No Amnesty”, “Follow our Laws”, “Deport Now”, “If you hire illegal’s you will be photographed and reported”, that by the way it is federal law that if you choose to hire illegal aliens, you can get fined up to $10,000 per illegal, which obviously don’t believe in. Racist it isn't but Patriotic it is!
You are also very wrong about who was local and who wasn’t. There were 4 locals, who asked us to come up there because they are tired of the illegal’s being in their wonderful quaint little town. Most of the rest are from Ventura County. There were a couple from the Valley, good for them, they believe strongly enough in saving our country to make that long trip. Ojai should also thank them for trying to save their little community. Also we had so many people thanking us on both sides of the street and several locals joined us for a while challenging the opposition in our faces. They told us that they don't want the illegals there.
You are a liar about racist remarks and you are a liar about any assaults. We too have plenty of pictures that tell the story of the high school student and her high school friend who was getting into the faces of the Patriot’s.
Although one of our Patriot’s does have a spider tattoo, the guy claiming to be American Indian on the opposition side who came over to challenge the Patriot’s had the same exact tattoo, so what. A lot of people have tattoos these days which mean nothing other than they like them. Tattoos don't offend me, in fact I think it is a form of expression, some are quite pretty, others are weird or even from the dark side. Not my cup of tea, but people are free to do what they want. It doesn’t mean what you are trying to say it means, but nice try. You are a hate monger, a racist and a liar. You are trying to paint a picture that did not happen. We have pictures thru-out the day. It shows how many people were there from both sides, not your exaggerated amount.
Anyone that would like to see the pictures can go to www.nomoreinvasion.com
The opposition doesn’t want people to find out the truth, they just keep yelling racist when in fact they are the true racist’s. We have links to many sites that show what their real agenda is and in their words. You will realize who the true haters are.
SOS folks,
the funny (& sad) part of this is the United States you trumpet and yearn for never really existed.
go back to europe, but I really doubt they'd want the lot of you you...
There's a time and place for everything, including apostrophes.
(Although I suppose you'd say "apostrophe's")
You need to learn how to read and write English, too.
Wow! I'm sorry, but that was a really biased and weak article. What is Brett Bradigan doing siding his paper with the SOS/NMI and the Minutemen crowd. It's disgraceful. Is it the OJAI Vally News or the OAK VIEW Valley News.
I write this as my own opinion based on my experiences and observations regarding Undocumented (Illegal) Immigrants.
Most of the individuals that fall into the above category that I have encountered are nice people just trying to get by day by day. They have have the misfortunes of having been born in poverty stricken countries governed by corrupt leaders. They aren't here in some grand conspiracy to destroy the U.S. or our way of life. They are just trying to make the best of theirs. I have often thought of what I myself would do if in their position.
The individuals I have encountered come here with an average of a 6th grade education. With that sort of qualifications, manual labor is what is available to them. I have witnessed one particular 55-year old suffering from the flu struggle with a wheelbarrow at a construction site, his task being to clean up scrap wood, cement and drywall.
But I am also a believer in the law, all of them, whether I agree with them or not. We can't pick and choose the laws we wish to follow, and ignore the others. If we don't like the law, we should try to change it.
One of the main reasons for immigration laws is to control the spread of disease. When you cross an international border, you may be required to have certain immunizations or proof of screenings against certain diseases. Let's consider Tuberculosis.
At at local shelter that I am involved in, TB testing for admittance is required for entrance. This is to protect the volunteers as well as the other guests. Through the years, I have have seen an increase in the undocumented immigrant population, with a higher rate of positive results. A positive skin test requires a follow up X-Ray examination. In all cases, the X-Ray exams were negative. But what if they were positive? How many people were exposed and thus exposing others, thus exposing others...
My point is that by not controlling immigration we are at a very high risk of exposure to diseases that could be catastrophic to everyone, not just undocumented immigrants. Our healthcare system is not prepared to handle pandemics, and that is a risk we take with unsecured borders.
Now, before someone starts calling me racist, I want to say that I have been in positions where I have denied entry to drunken undocumented workers solely because they didn't have the required TB testing. While they are calling me a racist gringo, as well as other things that an interpreter wouldn't repeat but said they weren't very nice, I had 7 undocumented individuals standing behind me backing me up. These were my friends making sure no harm would come to me and telling the drunken ones to go away.
As much as I understand the drive these people have to find a better life, we as a country can no longer sustain the cost of hosting undocumented immigrants. The above TB testing is done at taxpayer expense, albeit a small expense. But it all adds up. Whether it's healthcare, education, housing, legal costs as well as other costs, we as a nation can no longer afford to have immigration go unchecked.
B. Dawson - So let me get this straight: You're in favor if colonization, you think using poor day laborers as scapegoats is a good idea, you support SOS/NMI and the Minutemen and you are against the initiative process of direct democracy that is provided in the California Constitution. With that as a platform you should definitely run for public office.
So, Anonymous April 2, 2008 3:06 PM, let me get this straight: You're in favor of ignoring laws, importing poverty, ignorance and disease, don't differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants, and think the U.S. workforce needs more high-school dropouts with poor language skills. With that as a platform you should definitely run for public office.
holy crap anonymous 3:20 PM,
whose talking 'bout importing poverty, ignorance and disease, they been the leading exports of this this Nation for years -- along w/pain, suffering, and mindless consuming!!
"Give me your hungry, your tired your poor I'll piss on 'em
That's what the Statue of Bigotry says
Your poor huddled masses, let's club 'em to death"
To Anonymous April 2, 1:03 PM:
Please specify where you see bias.
To Anonymous April 2, 9:03 AM regarding my motivation:
This was a report, not an opinion piece. I attempted an objective accounting of events. In talking to several people, I got different versions of the same incidents. There were many half-truths being batted about that I felt would serve no purpose to print and repeating hateful insults is not necessarily newsworthy.
I did not personally witness the infamous pepper spray incident, so was not able to "report" about it. After the fact, I asked the one woman I could contact about it and quoted her reasoning.
I view the term “perceived a threat” as very different from “was threatened.” The first is belief, the second, fact. For example, if you interpret that first phrase as me saying it makes brandishing pepper spray “all OK,” that is your perception only.
I think you are off base with claims of “criminal assault.” Had the spray been released, then it would have been assault. Had any legality about carrying and brandishing pepper spray been breached, I feel confident Sergeant Evans would have involved himself in the situation.
I never saw the spider tattoo on the nameless man you allege to be a “leader” and do not agree with you that me guessing as to what his ink designs might possibly represent to him or any subset of society would serve to “expose truth” or provides “a service” to our readers. I perceive Mr. Irish to be a man with a loudspeaker.
If "Competing chants from opposite viewpoints grew ugly" seems whitewashed, so be it. Much of the angry accusations being screamed by all parties were unprintable. Who started the ugliness and whether they are founded is also a subject for the opinion page, not a report. Exercising freedom of speech applies to all factions in this nation, even those we may strongly disagree with. To create laws that equitably allow public demonstrations is one of the many responsibilities we must accept in a functioning democracy.
I think the video speaks for itself, and exposes the truth loud and clear. Kudos to Rob Clement for capturing fine footage of a very emotional issue and event.
If either of you really want to know my personal opinion about immigration, check out OVN issue No. 87, 116th year from August 1, 2007, page A5, “On One Hand.” Again, I do not believe my opinion had any business appearing in this “Border Dispute” report.
Finally, I believe actual progress could be made on this divisive issue if people from each side stopped all the hurtful name-calling and addressed the heart of this issue: global poverty. The “Haves” better maintain their greedy control of the resources when the “Have Nots” are busy fighting over the scraps.
Isn't the United States like a giant omeoba? Aren't we supposed to absorb other people, other cultures then spit them back out now Americana-fied?..in the process we take on some of their culture, like, burritos, tacos, y horchata.
Go back to Europe? How racist. Here is a video that I hope will put into perspective that this is an illegal issue, and not a racist issue. As Americans we need to work together to put a stop to illegal immigration. If the link does not work, go to YouTube and look up 'TheRealAix' his video response intitled 'Re:Blacks Must Support Illegal Immigrants.' This man is a true American.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BysOB56YU0
Concluding that citizens voicing frustrations over non-citizens' illegally entering the country are "racists" is just plain silly.
It is a simple question of whether we want to remain a nation of laws or if we want to devolve into a land of anarchy.
anonymous said....The one that started out his or her comment =
CHEAP LABOR! I couldn't have said it better - Bravo for a well stated blog.
I see many old PLOYS by ignmorant and anarchist persons immerging again here:
1. Legal immigrants are NOT illegal immigrants. Illegal one are aliens but US immigration law.
2. Anyone using the simple epithet "rascism' against other people is trying to change the subject away from rightful legal matters to silly emotional rants.
3. Illegal aliens are destroying our schools, legal system, our communities, our health care system, election system, electrical power & road systems, welfare systems, and many others by over using them and not contributing to them as US citizen's do everyday.
4. Illegals aliens make up 50+% of the gangmebers commiting crime in our communities. And their convicted brother are 25 to 35% of jail and prison populations being housed on John Q. Public's taxes.
DEPORT them all ASAP. Just think of the money saved and the money could be used for more important public systems that are under funded currently.
After watching that video, I concluded that the Thacher student couldn't be anymore obnoxious. I feel sorry for her.
I am so sick of seeing them on the street corner waiting for work. It has really made ojai look like the slums.
Sondra:
With all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, you are the journalist, so you should already know most of what I am about to say.
Don’t print half-truths and opinion. Investigate, and find out the actual truth. Use your powers of observation and discernment. When you have video, from your own trusted source, watch it, and let it inform whether what people are telling you passes the smell test.
If you get different versions of the same events from different people, watch your video, ask questions and investigate to determine who is telling the truth.
You say you did not personally witness the pepper spray incident, so you cannot report it. But you did report it. You reported the perp’s after-the-fact, patently false version, that was contradicted by your own video. Meanwhile, you let the perp vindicate herself with a patent falsehood, without even interviewing the victim. Are you saying you could not find the victim?
Then look how you chose to report the encounter:
"Deciding to talk to the opposition, her [Ms. Karefa-Johnson's] questions compelled a collection of adults to surround her, including Zislman and Alone.
As their conversation continued, volume increased and name-calling began. As Karefa-Johnson attempted to clarify her position, Alone perceived a threat and held up the pepper spray in defense."
Your own video shows that what actually happened is when this African American high school student approached these mostly middle aged adults to ask their side, this group of adults surrounded her, crowding in on her and yelling hate inches from her face. Then out of the blue, as these people were verbally assaulting her, this woman you let get away with identifying herself as "Standing Alone" comes at her with pepper spray. Ms. Karifa-Johnson fled, thankfully. But what a horrible, shameful scene to take place on our Main Street. And what a horrible shame that these people are excused for what they did to her by your reporting.
By choosing not to represent the hate speech that peppers your perp in just about every unedited comment she has made in public so far, you whitewashed her. How is that accurate?
“Assault” is what the hate-spewer with the pepper spray did in the video. “Battery” is what you are talking about. As a reporter, you can call the DA or any criminal attorney and have these terms explained.
It is no excuse that the sheriff’s deputy on hand did not do anything. He may not have seen it. He may of his own judgment have felt the best course was to stay aloof. He may have sympathized with the hate-spewers. From your report, we have no way to know.
Meanwhile, by just reading the comments already in print on the Ojai Post and elsewhere on the haters’ web forums, you would have seen their commentary about inciting “goonage” here in Ojai. What is “goonage”? You see no worthy possible story in the self-evident possibility that these people came here with the specific intent to inspire racially-charged violence?
Why did that woman really carry the pepper spray? Was it self-defense? Or was it specifically with the intent to use on somebody, to create an incident, to claim “self-defense”, to claim victimhood, to try to falsely paint someone of brown skin as violent and create a story helping build their stereotype of “those people”? You as a reporter could look into her claims of “past assaults” and see whether they hold water. On the web forums, there certainly are plenty of allegations that these groups do exactly what I am asking about.
Same with their apparent leader (now disavowed for purposes of Ojai I am sure since he let his tat stick out for a photo). Nobody wants you to "guess" the meaning of his tattoos. But all the info that would trigger the investigative instinct of a reporter was posted on the various forums that you should have been reviewing as you prepared your story. Unlike the speculation on the opinion forums, you as a reporter could go find out where this guy got his spider tattoo, and why. You could find out his history and what he stands for. Or you could at least try. Because you are right - guessing about a "man with a loudspeaker" is not news. But if the man with the loudspeaker, by all appearances a prime instigator of what happened on Saturday, is an avowed member of a white supremacist hate group, or even has killed a minority (which is what some web definitions of the spider web tattoo claim it means), that is not news? That is not information which might help your readers understand what was actually happening Saturday morning in Ojai?
You chose to ignore it.
By doing and failing to do all these things, you grossly biased the article. You allowed some obviously racially-motivated hate spewers, who quite likely came here with the intent to incite violence, who admit they came here to terrorize/”dissuade” “lawbreakers” from working (though one question to them would have revealed that the only reason they think anyone is a “lawbreaker” at all is because their skin is brown and they speak Spanish), and who in fact did assault an African American teenager as evidenced by your own video, to come off as a group of peaceful, responsible citizens voicing their concerns about illegal immigration.
Back in the fifties and sixties, small town journalism in the South had a problem similar to what the OVN puts on display here. A black kid gets lynched, the paper reports the comments of white citizens who say he skipped town. Nobody talks to his family. Peaceful civil rights demonstrators get beaten and firehosed, the local paper reports out of town instigators started a riot which the police heroically and with great restraint put down. Bull Connor jails Martin Luther King in Birmingham, and local papers report on that as proof MLK is an errant "lawbreaker", duly quoting Bull Connor and everyone on his side to that effect.
Here in 2008, hatemongers come to Ojai planning to incite, in their words, "goonage,"*, are captured on video spewing hate and assaulting a teenage girl who does not share their skin color... and the local small town paper reports that "Border Dispute Comes to Ojai," sympathetically portraying these people as representing legitimate debate. The assaulter is quoted without criticism, fact-checking or challenge that she felt “threatened”, has been assaulted in the past, etc. Her hate speech about “anchor babies” and the like is ignored.
I am not saying this article was at the level of the Jim Crow press, it wasn't, but Sondra, OVN, as the paper of record, you've got to do better than this. Seriously, this is cancel-the-ads-and-subscriptions kind of stuff.
Now, maybe you will offer the defense that some papers in the Jim Crow South offered: Investigate and report the truth, and that’s what will cause advertisers and subscribers to desert in droves.
I refuse to believe that is true in Ojai, and what I am saying is, I challenge the OVN to do better.
* See their own forum where they talk about it at http://www.saveourstate.org/vforums/showthread.php?p=296161#post296161
No More Invasion is headed by a confederate sympathizer. He wears confederate flags and quotes Robert E. Lee.
Not that doing either but if you are doing that AND protesting illegal immigrants while making connections to White nationalists groups it looks bad. Real Bad.
By the way, how does NMI know the day laborers in Ojai are illegal aliens?
They didn't racially profile them, did they?
I feel so disappointed that many of you so called "Save our Nation" or I should say "Destroy our Nation" came to provoke our peaceful and beutiful city of Ojai.
If your really care for our nation, then you should consider the Immigration Reform Law to help the undocumented human beings find a way to get legalized.
Or, are you willing to get up at 3:00am or 4:00am to work in the agriculture fields despite the rain, heat, pesticides, quimicals or any toxic expossure? Then you should think twice.
The reality is that many of the undocumented people are farm/agriculture workers, and I really doubt that you will take thier jobs.
to anon April 2, 3:06 pm...
You are just one more example of the extremists on each end of this problem who twist rational conversations, perverting them into inflammatory untruths and then try to shove them into someone's mouth who never uttered the words. And of course, you hide behind no name because you are unable to accept responsibility for your actions.
You allege that I support groups I've only heard about in this OVN blog. Personally, I think both sides displayed poor social skills and did very little to further either side of the argument. (Yes I was there on saturday for a short while.) All that was accomplished was to inflame Ojai and and start an exchange of ignorance that is typified by posts such as yours.
Some one told us to move to Europe. Unfortunately, immigrating to other countries is extremely difficult. Other countries don't allow people to just walk across their borders and set up housekeeping like the United States does. You have to prove you have no criminal record, are financially capable of supporting yourself (ie, they want money deposited in a local bank) and, in some cases, you must provide an argument for why a citizen can't do the job you are proposing to take.
My position is this: I support the law. If you are not a legal citizen, become one if you want to live and work in this country. To do anything else is make a mockery of all those who played by the rules. I make no distinction between poor workers who want to better their lives or obscenely rich rock stars who seek the tax benefits of living in the US. They are all equal under the blind eyes of Lady Justice.
Unfortunately, I am no where near wealthy enough to stage a run for public office. Besides that, my disdain for "political correctness" would undoubtedly keep me full of slings and arrows shot from both extremes. I believe that most of us live in the middle and that just isn't acceptable to all y'all extremists.
B Dawson
Yes... I agree with you B. Dawson!
Too bad many people don't thing the same way you do.
Absolutely amazing...
Where is your intelligence or at least your common sense?
Being a Patriot and wanting the laws on the books followed does not make you a racist, nor does it make you an extremist. What it does do is shows that you have been a victim to the illegal’s and are tired of them getting away with the crimes. We the Americans have to pay the price for our government not enforcing the laws and the sympathizers painting a false picture. Those people are either America haters or just plain mentally unstable. They think laws are made to be broken or that only law abiding citizen’s should pay the price.
I would also like to challenge Rob Clements to show all of his video, I am sure that he has a lot of it that shows that the American Patriots were being harassed and intimidated and yes threatened by the opposition. But of course you can't be everywhere at all times can you Rob. You followed Gaby around knowing that she was harassing the Patriots from the second that she first confronted them on both sides of the street, being that she showed up with your photographer who also followed her around with a huge smile on her face most of the time, getting great joy out of Gaby and her behavior. She started on the gas station side, after she was rude, obnoxious, and ignorant there with her lack of knowledge on History or of what is happening to our society today. She made racist remarks, screaming on that side of the street where Zislman was, still screaming and making hand gestures, she and her little laughing hispanic friend crossed the street going after Standing Alone and that group. (Of course the article appears differently on what actually happened and who was where at the time). She went there with a major attitude and in a threatening way from the second she approached both sides.
How dare you lie or assume without seeing all video and pictures. That girl showed up to start trouble and that is exactly what she did. With the help of a newspaper video person, but I shouldn't be surprised about that and neither should anyone else. They show what they want to show, that way people believe what they want them to believe. Shame on you and shame on them for not doing your research on the events of the day, before making your mind up on the reality of what transpired. If you were there for a short time, you probably didn’t witness everything anyway. If you believe otherwise, you are part of the problem of why America is being destroyed.
By the way, yesterday a neighbor’s house was raided again by the ATF and sheriff’s department. Yes, it is illegal’s living there. This happens regularly there. It is bad enough knowing about a lot of what is going on there, now it is getting more dangerous. Is this the kind of citizen you want living in America, because it isn’t what I want for my country.
Just so you know, I live in Ventura County and in a quaint little community as well. You can be part of the problem or you can be part of the solution, what are you going to choose?
Annonymous 9:48 AM,
"she and her little laughing hispanic friend crossed the street..."
Just wondering how you could POSSIBILY know the ethinicity of this little troublemaker?
Anonymous 10:48:
Jus't put' thos'e apos'trophe's any'wher'e yo'u like', becaus'e ther'e's' no' rea'l ru'le gover'ning' thei'r us'age or' anyth'ing li'ke tha't. The'y're jus't lik'e li'ttle heart's and s'miley face's. Yo'u can' pu't th'em an'ywhe're you' w'ant, ju'st fo'r deco'ratio'n.
OK, so I'm confused.
Which were the illegal aliens? Was it the one sitting in the chair, or the one holding the pepper spray? Unlike so many others here, I can't seem to tell just by looking at a person whether he or she is in the United States legally or illegally. Please assist.
Viva la raza.....this is the most racist statement you will ever hear.
Save Our State/Minutemen:
This matter would clear up instantly for me if one (or all) of you would respond to the following...
1. Does being a “Patriot” assure (or given preference in the eyes of Jesus) to entrance into heaven?
2. If so, do illegal aliens go to hell?
Holy Mother Mary Of God, what a stupid question. No, it means an illegal goes to jail or gets deported. Do you even know what the word illegal means? Do you know what our immigration laws are?
Holy Mother Mary Of God,
Ann 3:15PM raises a good point -- righteousness seems to ooze from you super-patriot types!!
Anonymous said...
Save Our State/Minutemen:
This matter would clear up instantly for me if one (or all) of you would respond to the following...
1. Does being a “Patriot” assure (or given preference in the eyes of Jesus) to entrance into heaven?
2. If so, do illegal aliens go to hell?
Thank God for that. Much better then you atheist spoiled brats pretending to be religious.
God chose for me to be an atheist.
amazing. I was there throughout the entire protest, and am an unbiased observer- here's my take:
Both sides brought up an important debate with valid points from either perspective.
HOWEVER, the methods of execution were very extreme- in fact at the polar ends of the spectrum, and the protest in and of itself became more a shouting contest and a den of fear-mongers than anything productive.
I went and investigated the SOS blog and found their diatribe full of hateful talk that seems to stem from the bad experiences they have personally had. They take these negative characteristics of humanity- not just any one nationality or ethnicity- and apply them to illegals as some sort of blanket. From a cultural anthropology perspective, this group is justified in their own minds because of its extreme US vs. THEM mentality and because they do allow experiential knowledge to skew their reason. They tout about the threats and physical violence they have endured- this IS true as one of their members recieved a blow to the head from a rock or brick- and there are pics of him bleeding profusely. Here is my example of their overreaction and how it causes them to become so radical and off-putting, even if their arguments have good points: Because of the rock-to-the-head incident (as well as other attacks), they carry pepper spray and I witnessed them threatening to use it under what i considered little to no provocation. To be fair and equitable, they seem like they have itchy trigger fingers. Now, they have said that Gaby Karefa-Johnson came with fists up, however, i would dispute that and say that their mega-phone controller (the one who'd had the rock thrown at his head previously) was verbally harassing her for being a racist because she had brought up her provenance in a debate they were having. They wildly declared she used the "race card" and would not leave her alone. I'm not here to argue what happened- I really don't give a shit and i know what i saw (i have photographic proof as well), but my point is the lack of productivity of this event- so back to it.
I have discussed the issues i take with the "Patriot" side- but now for the "Opposition." To reiterate my point- it seems sad to me that passersby had to witness this spectacle that was hosted by the extreme ends of the spectrum- without much moderate thought going on. The opposition was a group from Oxnard and when I spoke to their leader Gavriil, he actually presented good points- and said that the group's main priority was to inform people in the community of their rights and provide safe houses while campaigning that working is a human right. Of course, not much of this message was shouted across the street. Instead they antagonized the other group by associating them with both the Nazis and the KKK. They are a passionate group of young people who are exploring political theory and have motivations and agendas associated with idealism, partly because they are young. Much of the buzz around their group was floating around with a myriad of "ism"s and abstract concepts that they apply to real life like sticking a square peg in a round hole. If anyone was looking for shock- this was the show to go to.
There was widespread escalation without any true fights breaking out physically. Ultimately, it left me disappointed because both sides are fighting (in underhanded ways) about a worthy topic, but abandoning reason for logical fallacies and succumbing so much to false nationalistic pride, fear, and hatred that their true messages were lost in the bombastic slander. So, the reason I am so sad this turned out the way it did is because it seems that the outside observers are left no better off, and yet these groups are all congratulating themselves on the insides for having bravely stood for their beliefs in "heroic" ways when they don't realize how very repugnant they were in their shallowness. Poor high school students were joining the ranks of people who don't mind advertising their very pro-socialistic colors and anti-american sentiment, while others drove by and honked unwittingly for individuals who screamed at those same naive high schoolers and almost pepper sprayed them for asking probing questions. The mass anger created a losing ground from the start- their was no intelligence- just scapegoating and ignorance.
...and look- the issue still remains UNSOLVED!!!
Why don't we talk about things we might do to find a winning solution instead of further entrenching ourselves into a pool of hatred and economic depression?
CUTE, LOL
Anonymous 10:48:
Jus't put' thos'e apos'trophe's any'wher'e yo'u like', becaus'e ther'e's' no' rea'l ru'le gover'ning' thei'r us'age or' anyth'ing li'ke tha't. The'y're jus't lik'e li'ttle heart's and s'miley face's. Yo'u can' pu't th'em an'ywhe're you' w'ant, ju'st fo'r deco'ratio'n.
But for the people that use spell check on our wonderful word processors or email accounts, that is what comes up. Of course you can also put in a word out of context spelling it correctly and it will still happen. So I guess the added apostrophe is better than spelling it completely wrong.
Here's more from "Standing Alone" that did not make it into the article:
(Commenting on the No More Invasion blog about a woman pictured in a photo on the site):
"The illegal woman wearing birkenstocks cracks me up! In some pics you can see her covered up bleached blonde hair,(back of the head) probably done so to lessen detection crossing the border!
The Birkenstocks, no doubt a gift from her liberal traitor house mistress!
Hey goon in pic three, nice place to put your flag..of course appropho considering they plan on taking over by their abundant breeding habits!
Whats up with the Citizens speaking to the Sheriff in pic 12?
The Black chic is either a tourist or Local, I have not seen her before, she went off on Jeanfromfillmore who is more than capable of taking care of herself, but I wasn't not going to take chances when she had two fists coming at us, so I warned her to step back.
Lovely pics of the local gangbangers who terrorize Ojai residents,too frighten to stand up to them so coddle them instead of dealing with why they are here and how they could rid themselves of their ever increasing numbers."
http://www.nomoreinvasion.com/forum/index.php?topic=2457.90
What is with the pepper spray lady? The older lady with the hat was the one that was foaming at the mouth. She was just festering with hate. The black girl was just trying to get a word in. Then pepper spray lady decided to put an end to the debate by threatening to use pepper spray on the black girl, then pepper spray lady laughs about it later. If she had used it on that girl, now that would have been assault. I have never seen so much hate come to Ojai. They should go back to Fillmore or wherever they came from. The only thing we don't have room for here is racism.
There is a family of illegals living in my neighborhood that maybe the patriots/SOS can help me with. I know they are illegals because they look way different, dress different, and I can't understand a word they are saying. I crack up at the "American type" of clothes they try to wear. I'm sure they are illegals, or maybe just from Kentucky or Arkansas.
On this anniversary of the death
of one of the most distinguished
people of color this country has
ever seen, let it be remembered
what people of color and racial
diversity contibute to a free
society, and how tolerence has
allowed and enhanced the culture
we now enjoy- the music,the food,
the workers doing what many are too
proud or racist or class conscious to do.
Many who have written on this blog have
revoked their right to live in a free and tolerent society created on such high ideals,
and they should find another home other
than Ojai, because through their bigotry they have classified themeselves beneith the spiritual ideals found here. PL
There are many angles that have been debated (in some cases angrily) with this story. It is far easier to spiral down into throwing spit balls back and forth between groups who are at opposite ends of the spectrum than to have a decent talk and find solutions. The two main issues, it seems to me, were 1) do the "anti-illegals" people have a right to come to our town? and 2) what to do about illegal immigration.
Pete, you brought up MLK. How many times did towns seek to keep him out with injunctions and police lines. Many of you would argue that was discrimination and fear. How can you now demand that out of town groups have no right to express themselves in Ojai? Contrary to many opinions expressed here, many in this town are concerned about illegal immigrants, just afraid to be vocal about it, afraid to show their faces for fear of reprisals. Ojai has diverse views.
Here's another question for you: why go to websites that you KNOW are going to have severe statements that you will find abhorrent and then re-post them here? That is the same as re-telling an off-color or racial joke that shocks you. Each time it is re-told or re-printed it sustains the flame and creates more damage. That makes the re-teller every bit as responsible as the originator.
The anger from both sides seems to be the result of their respective frustrations. The immigrates (and their supporters) are not finding streets paved in gold and the easy life - something they believed the US would offer. The stop the influx people are tired of the US being an open door and are seeing no progress in a workable solution.
So who is right and who is wrong? It isn't (pardon the reference here) black and white. But it's always more convenient to keep it in those terms, isn't it? That mushy, poorly defined middle ground of compromise is a tough place to make progress, but it is the field where all lasting solutions are to be found.
How 'bout we all put on our hip waders, stop with the "I'm right and you're the idiot" speak and find some real solutions that will keep this Country (and Ojai!) strong, repair the damage and keep us moving forward.
B Dawson
there is a Cheech and Chong song that sums it all up, you know the one
April 4 9:39Pm Annonymous...I couldn't agree with you more. Your comment was short and not at all, "you're stupid we're right." I have lived in Ojai for half of my life having moved here from Santa Barbara. The people that came here to demonstrate don't represent me at all. I haven't hired any of those guys on the corner but I have walked passed them many times and say Hola! I have never been harrased or bothered by them. I have a busy life and don't have a stance on the issue right now but I condemn people from elsewhere coming in and saying they speak for Ojai when they don't and being real obnoxious to the other human beings by sticking a camera in your face if you disagree with them and all the racial insults and comments they use to describe the day laborors rightly or wrongly here, they are humans just like all of us and are just trying to make a living. Real Ojaians treat all people with respect even if they don't agree.
We are all people of color, and when we all start practicing a little more humanism we'll no longer need most of the other "isms".
...How can you now demand that out of town groups have no right to express themselves in Ojai? Contrary to many opinions expressed here, many in this town are concerned about illegal immigrants, just afraid to be vocal about it, afraid to show their faces for fear of reprisals... THESE COMMENTS TRULY
SEEM LIKE THINLY VEILED RACISM AND BIGOTRY-NOTHING TO FEAR WITH A POINTED HOOD OVeR YOUR FACE!
B - You're comparing MLK to NMI and SOS. That argument is so preposterous it's hard to imagine anyone would try to make it. Do you truly believe that scapegoating day laborers is somehow congruent to the marching and sit-ins of the civil rights movement against segregation.
The argument is not whether the presence of undocumented workers is illegal. It's not about people disliking illegal immigration and stating that it is against the law. There is no argument there. The argument is that groups using the flag as a prop came to Ojai to intimidate people who routinely try to get work here in Ojai. They came to scapegoat--pure and simple. Do you actually support this kind intimidation?
We can talk all day about the root causes and effects of undocumented migrant workers. About the insane, supply-side, Milton Friedman, Reaganomic policies that have prevailed in our country, and much of the world, for the last 30 years. The same policies that have just allowed the largest wealth transfer in the history of the world to take place on Wall St. These same policies that are bailing out the financial institutions have set up this migrant labor issue. The reason the problem is allowed to continue is because it serves their broader purposes. We could talk about using migrant workers to threaten labor in this country and bust unions to keep a lid on wage growth if you want, but unfortunately that is not the argument.
There were three groups last Saturday in downtown Ojai. There were the NMI/SOS, Minutemen people dragging the American flag and intimidating people. There were the migrant rights/anti-facist/"anarchist" counter protesters brandishing the Mexican flag and exchanging insults with the former group. Then there were the citizens of Ojai trying to make sense of it all. Like many, I was immediately repulsed by the NMI/SOS people trying to intimidate and scapegoat the undocumented laborers. At the same time, I wasn't entirely impressed by the tactics of the other side. I don't think misusing the Mexican flag and chanting "racist" and other things really furthers their cause.
With the possible exception of the woman referring to herself as Standing Alone and threatening others with pepper spray, none of the people in either group were from the Ojai Valley. While it is technically legal for these people to come up and intimidate some of the most vulnerable people in our midst, do you really want to condone their tactics?
SPK
B Dawson says:
"Here's another question for you: why go to websites that you KNOW are going to have severe statements that you will find abhorrent and then re-post them here? That is the same as re-telling an off-color or racial joke that shocks you. Each time it is re-told or re-printed it sustains the flame and creates more damage. That makes the re-teller every bit as responsible as the originator."
B assumedly is referring to anonymous April 4 12:11 am.
B, it is nothing like "re-telling an off color joke." Amidst the spew of the people you apparently want to support, there has been commentary in this thread about the accuracy of Sondra Murphy's article and the quality of reporting by the OVN regarding this event. If you read through the original article that started this thread, you will see that "Standing Alone" is quoted as a key spokesperson for these people you seem to want in Ojai. However, as was pointed out in several comments, "Standing Alone" was not accurately represented in the OVN article. Her racist spew was either edited out, ignored or whitewashed. The post you complain of demonstrates this.
It is hard to see exactly where you are going with your comments. Apparently, you don't like the reality of who and what these hate groups are intruding on discussions about them. You seem to think we should welcome them in Ojai, or at least abide them. I find that disturbing.
The reality is that despite the OVN reporting and your apparent views, as demonstrated by their own behavior these groups are much more accurately compared to the racist lynch mobs of the old South than they are to the nonviolent demonstrations of MLK. It is sad that you refuse to see that.
Am I a racist if I oppose illegal immigration?
no james, but you're still a bucket-head.....
JH - Do you have that thing where you're unable to form new memories and therefore reading comprehension eludes you?
SPK
dont hire them to work. If they have no work they will leave.
Am I a racist if I oppose illegal immigration?
In and of itself, opposing illegal immigration does not make you a racist, but that doesn't mean you aren't racist anyway. Are you?
Special K,
Reading your comment really isn't thought-provoking and for that it is unmemorable. In a round about way you ask who is responsible for the perceived demand for an illegal alien work force. Who cares? Your circuitous rant is merely an exercise in skirting the issue.
A theme throughout this blog is that if one is opposed to illegal immigration, that person is presumed to be a racist. The question I posed bears on this absurdity. I have yet to read an opinion that calls for an end to legal immigration based on the immigrant's ethnicity. The frustration lies in the illegality of the acts, not in the ethnic orgin of the actors.
Let's face it, do we have laws regarding immigration or do we not? Should we ignore these laws? Even Barak Obama understands that "concerns over illegal immigration go deeper than worries about economic displacement and are more subtle than simple racism . . . the immigration debate comes to signify not a loss of jobs but a loss of sovereignty. . " Audacity of Hope, P. 264.
My question, then, was a rhetorical one, used to weed out emotional knee jerkers from a legitimate debate over whether this country will remain a nation of laws or one that regresses to anarchy. The fall of Rome, most historians will tell you, was the result of a collapse of its borders.
The benefit/detriment of illegal immigration debate could go on forever, or the debate over what causes the immigration: Large corporations looking for cheap labor, the human struggle for a better life, etc. Do we really need to discuss it? The real debate is and should remain whether American sovereignty can coexist with a complete disregard of its borders, and hence, the loss of its sovereignty.
It is axiomatic that we cannot be sovereign and not sovereign at the same time.
But are you a racist, James?
....or was your circuitous rant merely an attempt to avoid answering a direct question?
JH,
Were you even there? So you oppose illegal immigration and you think some Ojaians are calling you racist you're .. wrong but if you were there with the two sides and the poor laborers stuck on the bench wondering what is going to happen to them if you think the answer is to deport , deport, deport, as one member stated and as the sign stated at the rally, how do you think we are supposed to do this? Walk up to them, shackle them, put them in a paddy wagon in the middle of Ojai and drive them down to Mexico? Just drop them off anywhere? This is what the sign says on the demonstrators and you are like , oh no, thats not racist, no thats actually cruel Mr Hatch, as was that whole spectacle of a demonstration. But I guess if you are just lumping them together as nogooders then who cares you say how they do it, just do it an be done with them because they're illegal.. do you think it is going to be all nice and peacefull and grafitti free once they are gone? Do any of you really think its a day laborer who is spraying OSL in his free time? Have some compassion for these people that struggled albeit illegally to get into this Country to make a better and safer living for their families then they could down in Mexico. Put yourself in their shoes. Unless you yourself want to be treated like an animal, don't plan on treating other people like animals. Maybe the answer is like one person stated, just stop hiring them and they'll go away. No work no reason. So hopefully now you will see the point we are trying to make.
SPK- you prove my point completely. History shows that many who did not want MLK to come to their town saw him as wrong, a trouble maker, un-American, and feared he would bring rioting. From THEIR perspective he had no right to demonstrate in their town because he did not represent THEIR values. This is exactly the argument being used against the alphabet soup groups by y'all. They don't represent ME, they shouldn't be allowed in OUR Town. I am passing no judgement on MLK or any other group. I did not compare MLK's values to anyone else's. I was pointing out that YOUR opinion is in sharp contrast to others', ie those on the street corner, who believe they are just as right as you believe yourself to be. Get it?
My point was that what YOU consider right and good and true, that which is worthy of being fought for, supported or championed has others who find it wrong, offensive and don't wanna see it. If YOU want the right to demonstrate on a street corner, then you must allow others to do the same. You can disagree with it all you want, vilify it, have temper tantrums over it. But as long as it is a lawful assembly, you must allow it and tolerate it. Those who disagree with you must do the same in return.
It's the goose/gander thing.
Those of you calling me a supporter of these groups are dead wrong. I don't know anything about them except what I read in the OVN and I don't bother to go to their websites. I support their right to express themselves, nothing more or less. If I do not support that right, what right do I have to express my own opinions?
The comments made by anon April 4 12:11 were in fact the focus of my re-posting comment. Sondra was taken to task for not being a good journalist or presenting an unbiased piece, so you post information cherry-picked from elsewhere to prove your own point of view, to show how offensive their "racist spew" (your comment, not mine) is. Claiming the OVN whitewashes cannot be proven by "evidence" from someone with an agenda at the opposite view. Had Sondra written the article from your end of the belief system you would probably have nominated her for a Pulitzer!
Again, all this proves the point I was trying to make. You're either a commie pinko (sorry, that may be a bit dated for some of you youngsters) or you're a racist. This is a prime example of why so many in this town don't bother to blog, talk or express opinions in public. This is also the reason groups like all the ones last weekend end up on street corners screaming at each other and carrying signs that say "hooray for my side".
The play pen is yours children. I need to get back to the mundane world and do some work. I got bills to pay.
B Dawson
B Dawson says:
"I don't know anything about them [the hate groups] except what I read in the OVN and I don't bother to go to their websites."
Thus, B goes on to defend the right of the hate groups to come here to Ojai and do what they did.
Except, since she only read the OVN, she doesn't know what they did.
B, I think you have proved beyond doubt what was wrong with the OVN's reporting on this.
Wasn't the point about the OVN reporting here exactly what you are saying about MLK's demonstrations? People didn't want him to come to their town because they feared riots, violence, etc. Why was that? What gave them that impression?
Biased (even if unintentionally so), poor reporting has consequences. When otherwise reasoned people don't have the facts, they can't come to reasonable conclusions. Yet, human nature compels them to form an opinion and make a decision anyway, based on the information they've received.
Explains alot about the mess we're in, on issues far bigger than immigration.
What is a racist? One who believes in their superiority based on their race? If that is the definition, then no I am not a racist.
Do I believe our standard of living, infrastructure, school system, legal system, health care system, and so on is superior to Mexico's? Absolutely.
Do I believe that Mexico is a corrupt nation? Absolutely.
Am I offended when I see Mexican flags waived in the United States by Mexican nationalists to show their allegiance to Mexico? Absolutely.
Do I see a fundamental problem with immigrants coming to the United States without ever having any intention of pledging their allegiance to the United States? Absolutely.
Hey James,
My father flies the flag of Ireland every year on his birthday and St Patty’s Day. He fought in WW II (US infantry...). Should I let him know you’re coming over to kick his ass and take his flag? Good luck!!!
Comparing a U.S. citizen who fought for his country to pro-Mexican nationalists that would just as soon see California become a Mexican state is a comparison I would not make out of deference to his patriotism.
wake up and see what is really going on. Our government does not care.
http://infowars.net/articles/april2008/040408Stand.htm
legal citizen's rise up the revolution awaits what you don't think you want now will be taken soon so claim it now
If you have hatred in your heart, keep it there. Nobody else wants to hear your ridiculous anti-immigration rants. In Ojai, we are a peaceful community and are very proud of our Immigrant population, who keep Ojai a thriving city. I think the "Save Our Nation" protestors are an embarrassment to mankind. Why don't you go ahead and tear down the statue of liberty? If you were educated you would know what it says, and you would realize that you were completely contradicting it. It reads, "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breath free...send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me." What's more embarrassing than the fact that this group thought they were being "American", was the fact that they assaulted a high-schooler. Grow up, be an intelligent adult instead of acting like a childish tyrant. Telling a young girl to "go back to Mexico" calling a young protester a "spic" is disgusting, revolting, repulsive. You've embarrassed yourselves in front of America.
So now a poem written on a gift from France supercedes federal law???
Whatever we decide to do about our problems, we'll do it without the unasked-for help from unasked-for volunteers from elsewhere. Go take care of your own town and leave ours to us.
The french SUCK that was a gift importing crime and poverty is what you are proud of?Do you cut your own lawn?CHEAP labor slave labor is you're pride.You get what you pay for.Give france all the tired,poor,hungry,hudled,bla,bla, p.s. up yours thanxx
What is the difference between prostitute's and day laborers ........prostitutes make more $$$ and do a better job !! seriously cant they find a better way to find work you know get a phone split the bill what is 40bucks split 50 ways right?Loitering is illegal also get off the streets
park at any liquor store for 30 min.a full car of illegals getting a nice cold 18 pack for the 20 min. ride home follow the van or what ever see how hammered the driver is that is the most sober person in the car don't get me started dil@#
GGGRREAT!!!
The racist pin-heads have landed.
Oh yea, what the hell was I thinkin'!!. This is Amerikkka....
Derka der!
You have to admire the illegal immigrants for trying to do better for themselves and their families, but with that said, what other country allows people to sneak in and go about their business as the US does? Sneak into any other county and see what happens.
The biggest impact that I see is that of the decline in the services that the citizens of our country are entitled to and paying for. Why do you think our health-care system sucks? Because hospitals are having to close because they cannot afford to tend to all of the people who come in for health services that they must treat without being paid. True, some are citizens of this country, but the biggest portion are those who have snuck in, and their anchor babies. And our school system sucks because we are forced to supply bi-lingual education for the kids of these people. Our kids sit around while the bi-lingual aid translates what the teacher has said to the non english speaking kids. Our kids are basically getting half the education as they sit there and wait for the translating. If we snuck into Italy, would we be supplied with free health care and translators for our kids in their schools? Something tells me not.
I think the first thing we need to do is to make it tough on those that hire the undocumented. Hire an illegal...go to jail.
One of the prior bloggers mentioned loitering. If we do not have loitering laws, we need to. It REALLY chaps my hide to roll up to the crosswalk at Montgomery and Ojai Ave., or El Roblar and Lomita and stop to wait for some guy standing on the pavement in the designated crosswalk looking every bit like he is waiting to cross, and then have him realize I am stopped waiting for him and then he sort of turns around and wanders back the other direction.
The basis of the problem is that Mexico needs to fix whateverthehell their problems are that force their people to have to leave their country to be able to feed and clothe and care for their people.
Why is it some many other countries seem to hate us BUT they all want to come here?
Stop flaunting your ignorance. They come here to make a better living – like your ancestors...
Our school system doesn't suck because of "illegals".
It sucks because bewildered, ignorant, fleshy apologies (you) would rather scapegoat than pay (taxes) to have descent schools.
Learn something from “illegals” -- suck it up -- get off your FAT ass – and get to work!!!
Why don't we just eat them? Wouldn't that solve the problem?
Maybe we could make ethanol out of them, too. A totally green solution!
Here's an idea: take a thousand day laborers and give them 100 acres of decent land, but nothing else besides shovels and knives.
Then, take a thousand of the people on both sides of the protest and give them 100 acres of land, too. They also get nothing but shovels and knives.
Nobody will be allowed any contact with the rest of the world for a year.
At the end of the year, we go back and look and see who has made a better place for themselves to live, and who has the most people left. The people who have done the best get to stay in America. The others get packed off to the middle of the Sahara, and we just forget about them.
Sounds good to me.
Heres an example of another Country that lets people sneak in and do whatever they want...Iraq! The U.S. snuck into Iraq for only the most slimiest, low down self-serving reasons. Its like the pot calling the kettle black. Mexicans should just say they are coming here because we have a nukuler weapon and they need to invade us to stop it! They just need to learn how to spin the facts a bit.
To anonymous 4/9/08 1:52 pm.
You do not know me as well as you think you do.
I do not have a fat ass. I AM working, putting in way more than my required 40 hours a week, and HAVE worked, paid taxes, since I was in high school.
I have a solution: Enforce the laws! Every illegal alien owes $5,000.00 for entering the country illegally. If we don't deport them, shouldn't we at least collect fines?
I have to pay a fine when I get a traffic ticket. Why is it so easy to require me to pay fines, when we have ten million illegal immigrants at $5,000.00 per person sitting out their uncollected? That's a lot of money.
It is also a double standard to the advantage of the non-citizen and the detriment of the citizen. In a country based on the rule of law, we seem to have fallen off track.
I challenge anyone that does not oppose illegal immigration to:
a) Justify not enforcing the penalty.
b) Explain why in a country based on the rule of law, those that break the law should not have to be responsible for the resulting penalty.
Good luck!
JAMES HATCH has hit the nail on the head...for a change.
Arizona has managed to organize themselves to the point where the undocumented are leaving in droves. California should take notes.
Please stop equating a citizens right to demand the enforcement of border laws and the outrage of illegal entry into our country as hate mongers and racists. On the contrary. It is a love for this country that is the basis for our support of existing immigration laws. The opposition neither loves nor cares to protect the soverienty of these United States.
Please stop coming into Ojai with your stupid signs and your dispicable cameras, pointed at everybodys faces, our tourists, our locals our children our students trying to get a reaction. Then when you do get a reaction you point pepper spray into their face if they don't agree with you then you post our faces on Youtube.. please stop , you're an insult to even single celled creatures. Go back to your own City. We don't like your angry vibes and we realize that your angry vibes are just going to bring equal and opposite reaction as well, so please we ask ,stay away.
To Anonymous April 14, 2008 7:11AM
You wrote, "Go back to your own City."
Don't you mean, "Go back to your own country and re-enter legally."
It would be nice if you cared enough about immigrants that waited long years to enter legally, but you don't. All you are concerned about is how you are made uncomfortable and are inconvenienced. And you hide behind the shouts of Racist propaganda! Shame on you!
Hi,
I wonder if your readers might have an interest in our article,
"Hiring Illegal Aliens" at
http://www.WebSearchGuides.com/illegal_aliens.htm
Please feel free to link or excerpt article. Thanks.
Steve Miller
Washington Research Associates Inc
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